Crowds For Hire: Inside the Protest Business | Adam Swart | Episode 73

Paid protesters are real. Adam Swart has been paying them for 14 years.

Adam is the founder of Crowds on Demand, a firm that organizes political demonstrations, advocacy events, and public appearances for causes, companies, and campaigns across the country. In this conversation, he pulls back the curtain on an industry most people don't know exists and makes the case that what he does is more transparent than most of what happens in politics.

We get into how the business started, who the clients are, what protesters actually get paid, and where the line is between legitimate advocacy and manipulation. We also talk January 6th, federal entrapment, foreign influence in domestic protests, and the transparency bill Adam is pushing in Congress that would require full disclosure of funders behind any organized demonstration.

This is not a conspiracy theory. This is a business. And this episode explains exactly how it works.

cameronbrownshow.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

There are a lot of federal agents there, there were a lot of protesters there, there's a mixture of individuals within that crowd. Were there paid protesters at that event?

SPEAKER_00 0:08

This is more of a speculative question because we had no involvement in that.

SPEAKER_01 0:12

You are literally controlling a robot army of sorts of AI rat or protesting events. I just I see that occurring. When I think about the First Amendment, it applies to it's supposed to apply to humans. I'm sure there will be plenty of legal battles on this in the future.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

That's not true. It applies to it was a human that ordered the robots to be there. It's no different than advertised. I would say I don't I I would say it's unequivocally the robots should be able to protest.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

All right, Adam, thanks so much for joining me this morning. Welcome to the Cameron Around Show.

SPEAKER_00 0:44

Hey Cameron, so so awesome to be with you today.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

Yeah, glad to have you here. Uh Adam, I got a I got a million different questions, so this is gonna be a really fun one today. Uh I have had organizations uh basically create protests around events that I've thrown pre previously and also the past, especially 10 years, just watching protests um online and on TV and seeing these things unfold. I think a lot of people are just curious to know a lot more about what that world looks like. So I really appreciate you joining. But to kickstart things, I want to let you give us a little bit of a background on yourself and uh what got you into this world of protest organization to begin with.

SPEAKER_00 1:25

Okay, well, there's no degree in protesting, so you really have to figure it out yourself a little bit. So um went to college at UCLA, that's uh in Los Angeles, California. Um, and then uh I really was involved in politics a lot uh in college, um, mostly on the Democratic side. I I like to say I'm very much an independent today. Um, but I uh was very involved in a lot of campaigns, managed like student action for you know the gubernatorial race uh back then and a bunch of local, whatever kind of elections. And one of the things that I found working in politics at that time was that um the people running those campaigns were were boomers who had come of age in an era of immense activism. So I remember these uh older guys would be like, Adam, get us a couple college uh thousand college students uh to this rally. And it's like, whoa, like in your day, that was an easy feat, you know, free pizza on the quad or even no pizza, just get on the quad, you know, uh for whatever the social justice issue was of that age, and you would do it because number one, people were very engaged, but number two, there was very few comp uh, very little competition for engagement, right? It was basically, I mean, uh, you know, I guess the boomers can correct us because we're both uh um not boomers, obviously, but uh the the the things that people did, in my impression, was free love, smoke weed, and get involved in uh whatever social justice activism was. That was college in the 60s and 70s, I'm uh guessing, right? So as a result, these guys would be like, Adam, get get me all these protests. There's gonna be these people at the rally, and um it was a lot harder um in that era, in this sort of different kind of era. So um I got to kind of figuring out how do you get people out to these events, right? How do you turn out? And then what I also found in the course of all this is you can have a rally, and that's great. Um, but it's almost more effective to have a protest because you can have someone else can have a rally, they can get their 2,000 people together. I just have to put 10 people out front, and I can get a third, if not half, of the media attention that they got with a fraction of a percent of the actual number of people that they had. If my message is compelling and if my message is targeted to the relevant media outlets who I think are going to be interested in covering that, right? So, um, so I really got to kind of see that. I mean, I worked a lot of random jobs in college, but I also worked as a news reporter um for several months at one point. So I got to see it from a media side and see kind of how desperate media is to constantly have coverage, and what you have with a protest is you were giving them a visual and they need a visual. And that was certainly true in the kind of 2012, 2011, but it's it's it's true today in a slightly different way, and almost more so with social media. So I I really kind of saw these opportunities. Then the other thing I saw is okay, we're in Los Angeles, right? What do we have in LA? We have out-of-work actors. So I was like, my initial kind of thought was to put two and two together. You have these people who are in huge demand need of attendees, and then you have out-of-work actors who are very theatrical, who are good at playing into a role. So this was a gig economy before that term even existed. So I was like, well, why don't why don't I put these out-of-work actors in with the people who need the the team? So we give them some money and then they get their attendees, right? So this has kind of served to haunt me for this past like 15 years that I've been doing this business because now we actually provide a lot of activists and people very sincere about a cause, but the media will still say, Oh, he's staffing these political events with actors, which is not strictly true. So uh my original business model is really like uh sort of haunts me still, um, which is hilarious. Um, but you know, it is what it is. I I I mean it's it was my business model, so I can't I can't bemoan that too much, but at any rate, so that's where I'm at today, and that's why I'm here.

SPEAKER_01 5:48

I just I just really appreciate the honesty on it. I think that more than anything, I think it's it's good that people realize that these things happen just in general. Like, and and once again, this is the business model, it's almost an auxiliary service to like a media company. I mean, you're a media guy, you're a marketing guy. This is literally just an auxiliary service to support media in and of itself to get to get your your message across. Um, but I think a lot of people when they when they watch things online, everything is so theatrical nowadays, everything seems so inflated and and so um divisive, almost creating controversy in and of itself gets eyeballs and gets impressions, right? And so we we know that as a society. And I think it's it's it's it's frustrating when you know that you're almost being played across the board. And I'm not saying that that's what you're doing necessarily, but at the end of the day, you are hiring people to serve in a in an actor type role to go to a protest, but there are also those individuals, it sounds like nowadays, that are more so activists that that frankly also just want to get paid to support the things that they they believe in. Uh but the biggest question is there is what what percentage of those people are actors still versus actually activists that believe in what they are protesting?

SPEAKER_00 6:57

Well, it's a good question. Well, I can comment with 100% certainty on my work, and I can speculate on what the broader trends, right? So, in regards to our work, when we do political events, right, or advocacy events, I mean, we don't work for candidates very often. Sometimes, yes, but mostly not. Mostly we're working for um issues. And we try to establish 100% of everybody working on a protest around an issue with people who agree with that issue, number one, because they're more effective for the client, right? So if you want to have people out there, do you want to have people who don't care about the issue or gonna look stupid on TV, right? Or do you want to have someone if you're doing a protest that says we should not defund the Minneapolis police department? Do you want to have somebody who doesn't give a crap about that, or do you want to have somebody who says, Hey, my store was broken into because we didn't have enough police, and this is why we need to have more police? You know, my I was I was mugged because there wasn't enough police, so this is why we need to have more police. So it what which one is more effective? So this isn't a moral judgment, this is actually a purely effectiveness judgment. But I you know, one thing that I slightly disagree with the premise of though is like uh, you know, you use the word um getting played, right? Um so people are trying to as if that's a a new trend. So I would use the word people are always trying to market to uh to you, number one, and that has not changed, that has not gotten now. The marketing techniques have gotten more sophisticated, right? Because especially the social media um has has lent itself to being able to micro-target, yes, right. But people have been targeting you with ads since for your entire life, for my entire life, and for more or less the entire life of humanity, people have been attempting the Romans and the Greeks had messaging um people who would try to message things in an appropriate way to try to get the maximum support. So this isn't the idea of trying to persuade people and message people using different arguments is not like a new thing. Um, you know, even in the American Revolution, Sam Adams, you know, who was a publisher um and one of the major rabble rousers, right? I we talk about this at the time that um King Charles is in the United States, right? And uh that he was he was a rabble rouser, and some of what Sam Adams spread was not actually truthful news about the British policies in in the United States. So, you know, even our country was built by marketers, so to speak.

SPEAKER_01 9:43

Um when you when you make that comment though, too. Obviously, in a lot of the paid advertising that we see online too, like the algorithm knows us. There are paid individuals online that are acting in roles to support certain brands, like a Colgate or whatever the brand is, right? There are obviously plenty of paid actors online. I think more so the difference here is when you see like a picture of a crowd, which I I've organized political events before as well, but I was on the right side of things. Now I'm also very independent. So I kind of did the uh a separate transition to you, but um, but very similar. Um, but I as it relates to you know kind of organizing crowds and making them look bigger, it was always a matter of let's bring in the students or let's bring in people to make this crowd look look much larger for the picture specifically. So I'm I'm assuming it's it's there's definitely a media aspect, and there is a visibility aspect that's huge for your brand and helping certain organizations show that there are more people involved than maybe otherwise would have shown up. Uh, but I guess as a follow-up to that, when it re as it relates to the moral aspect of this, does it not seem a little bit wrong to show people supporting a cause when it there might not be that many people that actually support it uh across the nation? But it looks like in person there are more people supporting it. So it starts to make you question your own thinking.

SPEAKER_00 11:03

Yeah, let's let's unpack that. So um let's unpack that. So, number one, uh what we're what you're talking about is contextual marketing, right? So you're saying that people will take the same thing, but if it's presented in a different context, right? I often say, what if Martin Luther King's I have a dream speech was in front of five people, right? It was a beautiful speech, but it wouldn't have had that resonance versus when in actuality it was given before a million people, at least my that is my understanding, right? So, um, but I posed the same question. Uh, I was on sort of a somewhat heated debate with a couple of gentlemen uh who had a podcast, uh, and they pro they uh on their podcast they promote a brand of hard seltzer that I think has like bikini girls on it. And I said, Well, why don't you just put a fat guy who lives in his mom's basement on your hard seltzer? I mean, it it uh it isn't the bikini girl deceptive, right? Um, no, because they're trying to present their seltzer in the best possible context. And the best possible context of a seltzer is having a bikini girl on the cover because it's like, oh, well, this is the the endless summer kind of vibe that your seltzer is trying to market. So um now, if I go back to my own experience in college, right? I remember uh being in freshman year of college before I started getting involved, and I saw Kamala Harris and she was presenting uh actually at the dorms at UCLA, and there were like five people there, and three of them were people who worked for her, right? Um, same with Newsom and same with all these kind of other people who I am sure at this point most of your audience uh had heard knows who they are, right? So those people were, you know, you could say they're good speakers or not, but they were not presenting themselves in the appropriate context because there was no one to see them, right? So the point is I think that what we do is put causes, candidates, uh companies in the right context for then someone to be able to make that decision, right? But it it's like there could be a delicious restaurant, wonderful restaurant, but if it's empty, a lot of people wouldn't even bother going, even if the food was good. So what I would say is at the end of the day, if if you prime the pump and then the gas isn't good, right, then people still aren't gonna come back. And let me give you two examples. I mean, you may have heard of a a guy named Jeb Bush who ran for president, right? Um, Michael Bloomberg ran for president. Um, both of those guys had a ton of money, used all the techniques possible to get on the map, but ultimately they fizzled miserably and they humiliated themselves, right? And because why? Because money can't buy success, right? So what money buys and what crowds and all of that buy is the visibility. It it forces people to take a look, but ultimately the product has to sell. So I guess my point is that I don't see it from a more I actually see it as very pure from a moral standpoint because what we're doing is putting it on the map. Ultimately, if somebody is selling a load of horse crap, people are gonna understand that, right? I mean, in your state, what is the name recognition of Lindsey Graham, right? It's probably 100%, but what is the feeling toward Lindsey Graham? Maybe, maybe not so hot, I don't know, right? So uh so Lindsey Graham is is not you listen. Did you listen to one of my previous episodes?

SPEAKER_01 14:49

I believe you did.

SPEAKER_00 14:50

Yeah, I did, I did, I did. I mean, uh like it feels like when you say Lindsey, I like I know a lot of people from South Carolina, and whenever I mention Lindsey Graham, like it's it feels like people are like puking, and nonetheless, you know, he he's he's there, right? So um I guess my point being that you that visibility can only get you so far.

SPEAKER_01 15:17

Got it, got it. So I think about like an organization that asks you, this is my my kind of my big question here. But if, for example, an organization that you disagreed with came to you and said, Hey, I need protesters at our rally. I'm just gonna use a hardcore example. The KKK came to you and said, Hey, Adam, we need 500 protesters at our rally. And they were gonna provide you with okay, right.

SPEAKER_00 15:44

So this is so this is a qualified hate group. That's a this so but that's so that's that's a little bit different also than saying I disagree, right? Because I work with a lot of causes that I may disagree with, but there's a disagree and there's something that well, there's two reasons, by the way, that you I might refuse something like what you're suggesting. So number one is is obviously I I disagree with them, that's true. But number two, um it's putting my people at risk, right? Because if the KKK is doing an event, right, you're going to have massive security issues. You may have like a a leftist group, you know, on the other side of the of something like that, right? You could you're gonna have a lot of authorities involved. So not only is it something that, yes, I I I don't agree with them, but there's also a practical reason that I wouldn't take something like that on, even if I had no morals about it.

SPEAKER_01 16:41

Got it. Well, that's that's good to know. I'm glad to know there's a line. Is there a line though for all organizations like yours?

SPEAKER_00 16:48

Um, no, I mean, uh the part of why I'm speaking out is that there are people who don't market themselves, who don't go on podcasts, who don't, who you've never heard of, that are probably selling to the highest bidder or are doing either selling to the highest bidder. I mean, in fairness, there is nothing illegal about organizing a protest for the KKK. We have something called the First Amendment. So the KKK does have the right, and they should have the right to organize if they want to organize a peaceful demonstration, right? Um, on their offensive views, right? So, first of all, it's important to affirm that we live in a free country where even those who we who just we strongly disagree with um should have that right. Now, I think what's even what's more concerning is that there are people out there who may be doing illegal activities, right? And that is a concern. And I don't care who you're doing it on behalf of Antifa, BLM, KKK, whatever, if you're doing illegal activities, that is a serious problem.

SPEAKER_01 17:48

I think back to January 6th, because I think it's the most recent um large protest that turned very sour for a lot of individuals. Um that that particular event, it's there's now information that's come out. There were a lot of federal agents there, there were a lot of protesters there, there's a mixture of individuals within that crowd.

SPEAKER_00 18:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 18:10

Were there paid protesters at that event?

SPEAKER_00 18:12

Uh well, so this is more of a speculative question because we had no involvement in that. So here's uh let me know in your opinion. So let me let me uh give you a couple thoughts. Number one, I oppose any attempt by government to um engage in what I call as entrapment, right? So government should and does have you know, presumably have a network of informants in various kind of groups that they think could be problematic do engage in legal activity to to kind of report back. That that's okay. Um, that's good because we want to know if if if certain groups that may have a lot of people doing things legally and some people doing things ill illegally, that they we want to know if someone's organizing something that's illegal. Right. The problem is when that turns into the government agents are actively pushing uh the people to do something illegal. And unfortunately, there is a trend of this occurring, whether it was um the Bush administration did this to Muslims um, you know, uh in the 2000s, right? Um, and the Biden administration did this to conservatives, right? And um, and I don't know what's happening under this administration. I hope they're putting an end to it, but I I I'm not holding my breath. I don't like this concept of the government agents coming in and trying to push things along where otherwise they're not pushed along. So so if that's okay if that does occur, that is a major, major problem and a huge civil liberties um violation. And and I think that both parties need to really uh stand, you know, take a step back and and say that that's an unacceptable practice. Um, and unfortunately, the targets of all of this tend to be, and and they've done it with drug operations too, with non-political stuff too. Um, is the targets of this tend to be people with really low IQs who are very persuadable. So maybe they say some dumb crap online, right? Which is their right, and then now some federal agent tries to push them to take their dumb crap and then do something horrible, right? Me giving them the tools and spurring them along. Well, well, now they're creating a crime that out of something that wasn't a crime. So I I instead of speculating where I can't don't know, uh I I do want to take this opportunity to really condemn that practice. And as Americans, we have to condemn that practice whether we agree with even if we hate the group that they're going after, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 21:05

And we and I appreciate you providing an example of it happening from a a concern, oh right wing perspective and a left-wing angle. Both both parties do this. Uh this is this is not like this is not like one party is better than the other necessarily. They all do it. This is this is a grand strategy play. I I think about though, like from a grand strategy perspective, though, especially with some of these fed federal agents, I I'd like to think, and once again, I've got a lot of guys that are in the military and serve in the government, work in the government, and they do wonderful jobs and they're great people. This is not everybody, but there's always uh a small group of individuals that tend to have um uh negative impact on the larger group. Anyways, uh that being said, I feel like some of these federal agents probably just to a certain degree want to um there is an entrapment aspect here, but they they they want that like uh chest beating moment of wow, I was the one that was able to get this person to jail because they're a terrible. terrible person and they were they attended the January 6th rally or they attended this rally or they did this or whatever. But then the other aspect of it is is there is there a grand strategy at play up above that's moving these people around? And I think this is where I think maybe you come into play as a a piece of this puzzle and a and a a piece of the checker or the chessboard here that is kind of moving people into place. But what you're saying is that there's no uh there's not a moral issue in your opinion of moving people into place to support these particular causes because what your organization does is hopefully supports just causes.

SPEAKER_00 22:35

I like that I mean in my opinion so I like to support common sense causes. So just is a very very moral judgment. I I suppose so is common sense but I don't that's very subjective too very subjective. So so let me put it this way I don't have to 100% agree with you to take on your cause. That would be absurd. Right. And I have to believe that it is something that is worth airing out. I love to work with underdog causes a lot. So let me and and sometimes underdog causes don't remain underdog causes. So let me put it this way um eight years ago I started working with the cryptocurrency industry. I didn't own any crypto then I don't own any crypto now right um so but I felt when they approached me some of the big guys in crypto um they were being discriminated against all the entire financial system was rigged not rigged but it was it was stacked against them um right from the bank system to the government treasury all of that was stacked against them and they needed to be able to advocate right um and protest was one of the vehicles because at the time the the lobbying system now they have so much money that they actually are able to influence that system but at the time that I started working with them they didn't have those resources or the know how to be able to do that. So I was proud to have assisted that industry in kind of pushing its message in the early stages because uh even though I didn't agree with it I 100% um I was like we this needs to be advanced right this this is ridiculous that the system is stacked against those people so I don't have to a hundred percent agree with your cause to take it on but I do have to think okay there's some merit and it's it deserves to be heard.

SPEAKER_01 24:33

Understood understood I just think nowadays there's so much divisive rhetoric online and I'd like and it's it's good once again it's good to hear directly from the people that are organizing these things. Yes but to my question earlier about there being uh certain groups and certain individuals that'll take money from any any group in any organization I think that's where where in the problem lies in my opinion. I think that's that's what I'm trying to get to the bottom of here and try to figure out because a big thing of big part of this show for me has been uh discernment and you talked earlier about low IQ individuals and I think even low IQ individuals have the ability to discern between good and evil. Oh yes and and I think we need to work together to try to help everybody discern better between good and evil. And when we're being marketed to certain things evoke emotions and that's that's what I'm obviously a grand scheme of a marketer is to make sure we evoke certain emotions to get people to buy a product or a service or to play along but how do we help people from this from this side of things the consumer how do we help the consumer to better discern between what is real and what is not real from what you've experienced and what you've already obviously done.

SPEAKER_00 25:44

And by the way Cameron I want to be very clear low IQ in the in no way affects your ability to discern between good and evil in fact probably the probably a lower IQ may kind of prevent you from becoming depraved uh in in certain ways but a uh the IQ helps you discern who is trying to trick you and who is not so someone who is lower IQ probably lacks discernment although in fairness I I know plenty of very dumb high IQ individuals as well so so I I don't want to make a blanket statement. I know plenty of dumb smart people I don't yeah yeah exactly but but I feel I don't feel as bad for them I guess is my point like like I feel my favorite movie is Forrest Gump literally my favorite movie I watch it like once a year at least and it's like I so I feel more for those people than I do for a dumb smart person who marries like a you know Russian bride or something you know male order bride and is like okay well you should you're a professor at a high end university and you think that that girl loves you it's like okay well that's on you I I don't have to feel bad for you but I'm I'm not asking you to listen back on all my episodes but I've got some very very smart people that have come on the podcast previously that know a whole lot about certain topics and you ask them about other topics and they're just absolutely clueless.

SPEAKER_01 27:06

That's right absolutely clueless and I'm like you are one of the smartest people I know how do you not know this necessarily it's true it's very it's very true.

SPEAKER_00 27:13

Um back to the I guess the question is discernment um part of it is um really it's it's harder now because if you go on X Twitter um in particular and I imagine other social networks you see a lot of information that is flat out false but with the power of AI there's a lot of things that really look um to be true and you have to be very savvy um like you you can't just have a normal level of discernment. So but the the real question that I don't that I can't quite give you the answer to yet is where does being savvy and discerning turn into conspiracy minded and paranoid, right? Because there is this line between okay they're trying to trick me and then now everything's a trap and everything is is trying to trick me, right? And uh which is which is actually a trap that a lot of ultra high IQ people get into which is complete paranoia and seeing trends everywhere even where they don't uh uh exist. I mean that's why a lot of ultra high IQ people may have you know schizophrenia and other other conditions right so the uh that is like a a tough thing and this world is is making us all a little bit more into conspiracy theorists of course like they're like oh no they're like like the abstein um issue right it's like it turns out like half of the all the richest most powerful people in the world uh are associated with with this man right so which kind of validates certain things that conspiracy theorists have been telling us for a while and have been sort of laughed at for right so so it it's challenging what you have to learn is primary sources my one my one advice to your audience is primary sources like if you see if you hear about a video about somebody or you heard someone say something look for the sources look for the full video the unedited video do you see what I'm saying look for the original piece and then try but then so number one you have to do that and the second part is you have to verify the authenticity of that source right um so so it's it's not easy and my thing is like I understand that there's this kind of concern that what we do is part of the deception machine whereas I don't I don't see it that way I actually see the one thing you can almost believe is what you see with your actual eyes. So you know you may not see for now for now for now I mean yeah exactly I mean we uh that in our lifetimes at least I mean I don't know whether there will be other things that will come up there but like when you see a protester a human being protest something something right talk to that human being ask that human being where why are you here?

SPEAKER_01 30:15

Like what do you believe and and what do you think so so you can you can really uh protest is actually an amazing thing because it actually tr transcends the manipulations of the internet tries to tries to tries to tries to and I think this is more more than anything you see a lot of these clips online of like the individuals go into protests and they ask a protest or a question the protester has no idea what's going on they're simply like I just don't like the guy it's like or or this organization is awful it's like especially a lot of like the Roe versus Wade protest or you know whatever whatever you know whatever protest but across the board people not being knowledgeable at these events I think is the most frustrating thing when you watch these clips like these things are all just a sham. Everything every bit of this protest is a sham. And like what are these people not like do they not have a day job to go to how are they here? So there's a lot of questions that are going through my mind. So I think more than anything it's just frustrating feeling as though somebody is going to an event being paid to be there to support a cause that they might not actually support. I know you're at the very beginning of this you talked about these individuals being activists or you at least wanting them to be activists in order for them to get paid. But I I do think it's just very important for people to understand that this is not a uh this is not conspiracy theory this is not everything nowadays is a conspiracy theory if it sounds outlandish that people get paid to go to protests. This is very real like this this happens just like people get paid to act in movies just like people get paid to act in commercials just like people get paid to do a lot of different things um but I think it is good for people to know that and then be like okay just because there's a large group there doesn't necessarily mean that the majority of the world or the country correct and it was in fact President Nixon who coined the term silent majority right so this is so number one so let's give them I mean okay first of all if you give the benefit of the people that they're sincere in their views there people are are not always going to be the best informed on everything.

SPEAKER_00 32:16

Not everybody's gonna be informed but the people protesting regardless whether they're organized by a church like the anti-abortion protests a lot of them are organized by a church they're like hey stand outside this abortion clinic right okay why am I here? Because I'm told to stand out there right saying I mean again that doesn't mean you you probably do oppose abortion but you might not be the most articulate advocate against abortion right the church guy the the pastor tells you you should stand out there well you do is that that are you the most effective advocate maybe not but why shouldn't you be able to stand out there to to protest it provided you're doing it peacefully um the um my my take is though that the uh the biggest thing that people have to understand is that whoever is protesting does not necessarily represent the broader community right and in fact one of the misnomers about crowds on demand is that we represent a minority perspective um we actually oftentimes represent a common sense majority perspective because what happens is uh in a lot of these things you have a vocal as you said 10 who just show up to every meeting whatever so let me give you a great example is in Los Angeles County uh this something that probably 99 of people maybe almost a hundred percent would agree with so Los Angeles County was considering a um a uh ordinance a rule to prevent uh child sex offenders from camping out near schools um I I I don't know anyone in my of liberal MAGA who would oppose this idea right uh if you would have been convinced I'm sure you can find somebody in this crazy world yeah so so I think I don't know I'm not aware of anybody um I don't even know if Jeffrey Epstein would have opposed that um so um I think that's an entirely different conversation yeah so so I I mean I I so the point is that that okay so this is something that I don't really know if anyone would oppose and yet 300 protesters stormed the LA city council to oppose this ordinance right 300 and I don't think there were that many people in there in support of the ordinance so does that mean the people of Los Angeles are against this ordinance no it means that there's a very very vocal minority who for whatever reason don't want this to occur and a vast majority of people just assume that the leaders are going to do the right thing and do what everyone else wants. So sometimes we're actually there to organize in favor of the silent majority because if we don't because the people who are in that silent majority have families they have kids they have jobs they can't necessarily just show up to these things unless we kind of compensate them to do it. So just take that as an example right is that you know if you take it like a lot of very dumb elected officials will say if 60 of people are for something in the cr in the audience and 10 are against it, then they're six to one you know for it. Well that's it not how it works. Though the people who are there represent maybe their own views but they don't not the broader view.

SPEAKER_01 35:37

Do you see yourself as like a provoking individual like in what sense? In the sense of like this this is I mean ultimately what you're doing here is you're provoking you're what to us there's not an entrapment aspect here. We talked about entrapment earlier. Yeah but I just I just think about provoking crowds and provoking certain individuals to do certain things. And if you have a certain number of paid protesters within the crowd that are trained to provoke the crowd into doing something they will do it.

SPEAKER_00 36:01

Oh so we don't do that we actually specifically don't do that. So so to answer that question absolutely not um again you don't train people to provoke others in into doing certain well but you're if you're are you implying that we would provoke people to do some like we would not provoke people to do any kind of illegal activity um at all no that because that would not suit our cause that that doesn't suit a cause and it also happens to be illegal our job now our job it is very it's very illegal but I mean I this it just seems like that is something that naturally from a strategic perspective would occur if you were trying to get a cross but if you're trying to accomplish a certain objective at a once again we can give an example here but like I go back to January 6th if you were trying to make the Republicans look bad or MAGA look bad so of course if you're saying that are there people out there doing it absolutely are we doing it no because we are I've been around almost 14 years now 14 years that we've been in business right we would not have been in business 14 years if we were doing any form of unlawful type of protests we're our job is we're a publicity firm specializing in kind of getting outside the box attention to causes companies campaigns and really creating consciousness around issues right we're not there to create ruckus right are there those people do those people exist yes but actually when you hire us you're actually getting a far more stable group of people why because our people want to get paid at the end of the day they want to go back to their families at the end of the day they're not looking to create a scene get arrested all of that they want to do their thing advocate for the cause and then go home and get their paycheck so in a way when you hire crowds on demand you're actually getting a far more stable group and a more predictable protest than if you try to organize it differently. You see what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_01 38:03

Yeah and again I and I appreciate you being very honest about this. I just think about foreign countries bad organizations, groups coming in and paying certain people and this it's just it happens um but I think people people struggle to be like oh this like I can actually see it I can visualize it I I see an LLC behind beside a country company name and I know for a fact they're legitimate.

SPEAKER_00 38:25

It's a lot of like these dark groups but I guess that's kind of my question is you know have you are there some of those organizations and groups that that we that you know about that we can maybe discuss openly or publicly uh well okay so it's important to say that there's a lot of speculative things right so it's important because I don't want to get sued um that I know defamation lawsuit on us par me we don't want a defamation lawsuit well correct and and so so it's very important that I don't say some make a claim that I cannot verify. But there are groups that I think are encouraging um so to whether whether they are directly pushing it or merely encouraging and abetting it.

SPEAKER_01 39:12

And while while you're searching I just had a conversation a long conversation with a friend of mine who's an Intel officer uh still was still is uh yes two days ago about propaganda in general we just talk about propagandizing a population and um and it's obviously when certain organizations and company and countries are not doing very well from a PR perspective they tend to shift dramatically in the opposite direction. You can kind of you can kind of see if you've been around it a while you can kind of see the shift occur you're like uh things are not going in their direction so something had to happen yes for them to be able to to get positive PR again.

SPEAKER_00 39:46

Well sure well I think that the way that I would look at it is that that there are groups that are certainly enabling it. So one group that I can that that I I has publicly I believe and correct me if I'm wrong said that they will essentially defend people accused of like let's just say you're conducting an illegal form of protest you're lying in a street or whatever right without a permit. So like it's called the National Lawyers Guild and I like to say that they make the ACLU look like the Heritage Foundation that that's how how radical left they are right and now I I don't uh what I can say is that the National Lawyers Guild uh has said basically hey we're gonna defend you if you're accused of certain things right and feel free to correct me National Lawyers Guild if I misstated your uh position because the last thing you know I know they're lawyers right um but that was right on the website right it's a it's public information yeah so so I would uh but there are groups like that that I certainly find troubling because when uh you make it now first of all I I support the idea that everyone deserves legal representation but I think when you are basically kind of actively saying if you do something illegal we've got your back so to speak um I I don't really like that idea and uh by the way the other kind of sense my feeling though is I'm a First Amendment absolutist. So I believe I mean I was just saying earlier that even though I despise the KKK I I support their right to protest even though I wouldn't help them in that uh the so the thing is that that we live in a country that actually affords us uh immense rights to protest peacefully and lawfully that I abhor any form of illegal demonstration whether it's blocking roads vandalism certainly violence because simply because we have the right to protest peacefully we can I don't need a I can protest anywhere on public land in this country. If it's public land I can protest without a permit and with zero notice and so how on earth do people justify unlawful protests when we live in this country where you can say the most heinous things legally right so so I just really abhor it and I think that I I partially of why I go on these podcasts is to really condemn that idea because there there's no excuse for it in a country like ours, right?

SPEAKER_01 42:30

And they make they actually make it harder because when when you have violent protest uh then it it actually makes all protests look bad right because you can say oh well look at these protesters right when a vast majority of protesters are are doing things the right way right I I the the the weird thought that keeps coming to mind for me is this like future dystopian society where not somebody like yourself necessarily but one of those groups hires or andor um let's just say they purchase 500 robots that look like humans and act like humans and um they then program them to go to certain organizations and to protest certain um certain events and you are literally controlling a robot army of sorts of AI robot armies that are protesting events. I just I see that occurring when I think about the First Amendment the first amendment right it applies to supposed to apply to humans. And I'm sure there will be plenty of legal battles on this no no that does that's not true.

SPEAKER_00 43:35

It applies to you but it was a human that ordered the robots to be there. It's no different than advertised I would say I don't I I would say it's unequivocally the robots should be able to protest a hundred percent the robots are how is it different how is the robot protest any different from taking out a billboard ad I mean this is wildly hypothetical but but at some point this uh this you could actually do right now you could do it but it would be prohibitively expensive because the Robots of today are really expensive. Um, but you could totally do this today. I could uh I could have a robot out there protesting. I'm actually shocked that I haven't been asked to do this already. It's a great idea. Um, I I and I in fact, so I I I just agree Adam.

SPEAKER_01 44:15

I'm not saying I want a percentage of that business because I don't really want a percentage of that business because that's a that is a great idea, though.

SPEAKER_00 44:21

But is there not something wrong with that from a how is it different than taking well, how is it different than taking out a billboard advertisement or advertising? There's a lot of other forms of advertising when you take out an ad on Facebook or on Instagram, is that not done through a robot?

SPEAKER_01 44:39

There's got to be limits on this. I I think that's my biggest idea.

SPEAKER_00 44:42

But what are those limits? So so do you think you should be able to use it?

SPEAKER_01 44:45

Okay, here's here's the limit.

SPEAKER_00 44:46

Do you support social media ads? Do you support the idea that you should be able to use an ad that uses an algorithm on social media?

SPEAKER_01 44:54

I do. But that's also I also I also have a lot of issues from a more advanced that relates to AI in general.

SPEAKER_00 45:01

Oh, that's fair.

SPEAKER_01 45:02

And I and I think and I think this is what I'm trying to figure out for myself. There's a those are great questions. I appreciate it. Uh, but more than anything, I think I'm just trying to figure out where the where we draw the line. Yeah. Because if if I cannot if not even the smartest person can discern between two things at the end of the day, right? If I have no idea that it's AI generated, and if I have no idea that that robot is actually controlled, um, and it's it's a it is a robot.

SPEAKER_00 45:25

Human-looking robot, like data, for example.

SPEAKER_01 45:28

If I have no idea that it's a real, and like not even the smartest person in the entire world can discern whether or not that's a robot. I think there is there needs to be a tag of some kind.

SPEAKER_00 45:35

It needs you need to be be made aware that this particular Well, I'm so glad you asked about that because uh let me make a pitch. Um, I actually have a law bill that I am pushing Congress to do, but of course, Congress is very slow and dumb. Um, it's called the Transparency and Political Demonstrations Act. Um, I I thought you would never ask. So I actually support what you're asking for. Um and and um I actually think that all demonstrations, and you actually funnel enough used 500 people. That was my 500 robot people. Uh I I uh I actually think that the the bill suggests that if you are organizing a demonstration, a political or advocacy demonstration with more than 500 participants, you should have to disclose the net funder of that, all the funding sources, and you should have disclose all the vendors. So whether it's a labor union, a church, a billionaire, uh advocacy group, you should be able you should show all the way from the top who's funding it down to the bottom of everyone getting paid. And um, I actually support that, and uh we are eager to comply with that once Congress passes it into law. But I'm not gonna be the only one who complies, everyone's gonna have to comply.

SPEAKER_01 46:51

I I agree with that 100%. How much do you get paid?

SPEAKER_00 46:56

Call Lindsey Graham, ask him to push it. Anyway, go on.

SPEAKER_01 47:00

How much do uh protesters typically get paid?

SPEAKER_00 47:03

Um, so that really depends. Um, so uh I'll I'll give you kind of uh a general sense of like how it works. Um first of all, it depends on the difficulty of the task, right? So some of what we do is like we just might have people sitting in an audience at a theater when there's a product launch or a press conference, right? So that's probably easy. So that's gonna be on the lower end of the pay.

SPEAKER_01 47:27

Which what is the lower end? Is that is that location dependent?

SPEAKER_00 47:30

Yeah, it depends, but maybe like a hundred bucks or so.

SPEAKER_01 47:33

Um or a day for a few hours, okay.

SPEAKER_00 47:36

Something like that. Or like, I mean, I I don't want to go into specifics because that I don't want to give people a realistic or unrealistic idea and uh have people hold us to that. It really depends. It's a it's a variable scale, but I'll put it this way if you're organizing, let's just say in rural South Carolina, a very Republican area of South Carolina, we are organizing something that's let, shall we say, more on the liberal side of things, the pay would probably have to be higher because we might not have as many liberals in our Rolodex. Got it. Similarly, if I'm gonna organize a conservative event in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, which is I think the most liberal part of the country, right? That could be more expensive, right? And additionally, anything dealing with weather, like okay, let's just say we have to you have to be out there from 6 a.m. to 6 p.m. Well, obviously you're gonna get paid more, or it's freaking freezing cold or piping hot, right? So a lot of it's gonna depend on the relative difficulty of the task. So we kind of uh and and our ability to assign people to each one of those tasks, but generally our pay is pretty good and it's far in excess of minimum wage. Um, and the reason that we pay well is because we want good people and who agree and are passionate and are going to make our clients look good.

SPEAKER_01 48:59

Understood. Understood. Well, Adam, I I I appreciate your time this morning. I appreciate you diving into all these different questions with me, um, especially the moral questions. I think more than anything, I think that's what I battle with personally, is just trying to figure out that where that line is. Umbigity in a lot of these things. Yes. But you know, to your point, there's great rebuttals. And frankly, I I know you've answered these questions a lot. Obviously, you've had you've had to defend defend your business for the past 14 years. Um but I also am I'm glad to hear that you're passing or pushing a transparency bill of sorts that will help people to better understand what's being pushed upon them and what's being shoved in front of their faces. Um, and I think we need more of that across the board so that people can, once again, just better understand what is going on in this in this world that we live in.

SPEAKER_00 49:43

I would 100% agree with that. I mean, we we need more transparency because people have lost so much faith in institutions that like like look at some of these like uh uh investigations, people don't trust the government to investigate, and internet sleuths are discovering things that the government agencies aren't. So um at this point, we I think do require more transparency, and I want to be a part of of that.

SPEAKER_01 50:11

So on the transparency question, this is gonna be a fun, final concluding question. It has nothing to do with what you do at all. But do you think we need transparency as it relates to JFK files, Epc files, UFOs, UAPs, etc. as well?

SPEAKER_00 50:24

Release it all. Release it all. Um I don't why what are first of all? I mean, uh the UFO, uh, you know, I I don't know anything about that. Um, but I I I think I want to know that. I mean, that's at least a current issue. So there's more justification to classify the UFO than anything to do with um JFK, RFK, and MLK. Um 100% needs to be claything needs to be declassified there. Um and all of the other major investigations uh that have uh caused conspiracies, I would rather that they tell us all of this stuff because actually sunlight might put some conspiracy theories to bed, and in some cases, we'll will put the establishment narrative to um wrong. So uh I I certainly there's no justification for any of this stuff that's 50 plus years old. So at minimum, that needs to be released. But I think Epstein 100 needs to be released as well. I want to know.

SPEAKER_01 51:29

It's kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don't, sort of thing with the information release because you release enough information, you don't release all of it, and it's like, well, what do you have in the market?

SPEAKER_00 51:36

I hate that they haven't released everything with Epstein. I think you need to release 100% and these people who sent him these depraved emails, right? Uh, but but those are showing up as redacted, or uh in some cases the emails aren't redacted, but the the sender is redacted. So how that's crazy. That's crazy. I want to know everything. I want to know who these siccos are.

SPEAKER_01 51:58

It's time for some people to go to jail. Absolutely. For or, well, worse. But hey, that's not for me to decide, that's for the legal assistant to decide. Uh Adam, anything else you want to leave the the crew with, the folks that are listening now?

SPEAKER_00 52:09

I just wanted to, if I could have 90 seconds to tell people something. So um, one of the uh things is so we talked a lot about advocacy, but one of the things I really want to help people to do is be their own best advocates because we are often called upon to, especially in this world where more and more of us are small business owners, we have to be our own advocates. So whether or not you're even at all involved or interested in politics, you may have to advocate with yourself because your insurance company denies your claim, or because your landlord is trying to increase your rent rate. You have to be your own best advocate. So let me just work you through in 90 seconds a few steps to do this. This is these are the steps that I follow when I run an advocacy campaign. Um, number one, what is your objective? Okay, I don't want my rent to go up, I want my insurance company to cover my bill. Figure out what your objective is, be specific. Number two, figure out who can help you achieve your objective. Don't yell at the customer service agent who can't help you, find the supervisor who can, right? Number three, figure out how to persuade the person to help you, right? Uh moral arguments don't always work, right? Oh my god, uh you can't increase my rent because I live here with my kids and my dog. Well, the landlord also has a kid and a dog, so they don't necessarily care about that. They might care more about you being a really good tenant and maybe you promise to pay more of the utilities or something, right? What is it that you can do to help them, right? Don't use a moral argument. Generally, moral arguments don't work. Um, number four, then figure out what success looks like and make sure you didn't just get lip service. That lip service is, you know, oh, we hear your concerns, we'll look into it. We have a committee, okay. That's lip service. You just got screwed, right? Make sure they actually did what you um asked for and then be relentless in following up to the extent that you didn't. So people need to, if you look, use those steps, you'll find that you'll be very effective in being your own best advocate.

SPEAKER_01 54:23

Well, Adam, thank you so much again for joining today. I appreciate uh, once again, all the insight and also for helping people to better understand that it's not a conspiracy period that people get paid to be protesters as well.

SPEAKER_00 54:35

So thanks, Cameron. I really appreciate it. You have a good one.

SPEAKER_01 54:38

You as well.