Inside the World's Most Famous Alien Abduction Case | Betty & Barney Hill

Betty and Barney Hill's story changed how the world thinks about UFOs. 🛸

Kathleen Marden is their niece - and she's spent her life proving their story was REAL.

For over THREE DECADES, Kathleen has worked hundreds of abduction cases, trained MUFON's field investigators, and sat across from thousands of people who say they've been taken. 

In this episode, she's telling us what the research actually shows.

Kathleen Marden is an internationally recognized UFO abduction researcher, author, and lecturer. She holds a BA from the University of New Hampshire, spent 10 years as MUFON's Director of Field Investigator Training, and another 10 as founder of their Experiencer Research Team. She's a recipient of the International UFO Congress Lifetime Achievement Award.

We get into the difference between credible research and internet noise, why the government has kept this hidden for 70+ years, and what happens in the room when someone remembers being abducted.

We also go through:

• What Trump's declassified UFO reports actually confirm
• Investigating her aunt and uncle's abduction case 😮
• Her honest reaction to the “Disclosure Day” movie
• Grays, Nordics, reptilians - who answers to who 👽
• “Screen memories” and why ETs show up as animals
• MUFON's legitimacy despite infiltration attempts
• Why abductions tend to run in families…
• Are the aliens interdimensional beings or us from the future? 🤔
  
  

Kathleen is one of the most credible voices in space/UFO theory - and she's just getting started.
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Follow Kathleen: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kathleen-marden-b35b4a15/

The Cameron Brown Show is where people, ideas, politics, culture, science, sports, and the unknown collide. No limits. Just conversation and discovery.

Listen to other episodes: cameronbrownshow.com

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0:00 UFO Abductions, Portals, and the Search for Truth
1:44 Meet Kathleen Marden: UFO Researcher, Author, and MUFON Expert
3:04 Kathleen’s Books and Decades of UFO Research
4:11 The Betty and Barney Hill Case and the Famous Star Map
5:46 Science Was Wrong and the History of Debunked Discoveries
6:34 Investigating Experiencers and The Alien Abduction Files
8:05 Fact, Fiction, and Flying Saucers
11:12 What To Do If You’ve Been Abducted
13:52 Forbidden Knowledge and Kathleen’s Personal Journey
17:27 How Beginners Should Approach UFO Abduction Research
18:27 The Best UFO Books and Researchers to Start With
24:25 Why the Betty and Barney Hill Case Still Matters
27:21 Why Hypnosis Was Used in the Hill Case
32:51 MUFON, UFO Organizations, and Credible Investigation
36:51 Kathleen’s Thoughts on Disclosure Day
38:30 Why the Movie Was Traumatic for Some Experiencers
40:14 Thousands of Experiencer Reports and Common Abduction Patterns
42:15 Portals, Missing Time, and Being Taken From the Home
43:05 Messages About Nuclear Weapons, Earth, and Extinction
45:21 Why Some Families Experience Contact Across Generations
46:49 Are ETs Trying to Upgrade Humanity?
49:11 Kathleen’s Spiritual Transformation Through UFO Research
50:42 Grays, Reptilians, Nordics, and Other Beings
52:23 Have These Beings Always Been Here?
53:38 Screen Memories: Clowns, Animals, Owls, and Other Disguises
55:17 Extraterrestrial, Interdimensional, or Ultraterrestrial?
56:42 Reptilians, Time Travelers, and Future Humans
58:26 What 6,000 Experiencers Have Reported
59:48 Advice for Experiencers and Where to Find Help
1:00:26 UFO Documents, Public Disclosure, and Why We Shouldn’t Fear the Truth

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#UFOCommunity #UFOTok #AlienLife #UAPNews #DisclosureMovement #AlienAbductionStories #ParanormalInvestigation #ETContact #CosmicMysteries #AncientAliens #MUFONResearch #UnexplainedPhenomena #SpaceMysteries #DeclassifiedFiles #AlienTruth #KathleenMarden #BettyAndBarneyHill #PodcastClip #TruthSeekers #TheCameronBrownShow

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Someone that's new to the UFO abduction research space and is trying to their best to better understand what's going on. What would you suggest to them as a good starting point so they don't go down the wrong rabbit hole?

SPEAKER_02 0:12

The reports we've received on about 6,000 experiencers were denied for years, but now we see that they're real. Many of them say that they have been here since the beginning of life on our planet. I have seen verified photographs of these things as a researcher. Many of these extraterrestrials are using interdimensional technology, we believe, to open portholes, to go into people's homes. They would come to your home at night. People would see the wall opening up, the ceiling opening up, a hole through the window. It was some kind of portal. People are entitled to do what they want with their lives. And unfortunately, the ETs don't ask for permission. When they go to take children from their homes, they can appear as clowns or firefighters or police officers, whatever it is that's going to make the child feel safe. It could be that they've always been here. Maybe they're reptilians. Another possibility is that they're time travelers, that they are us from the future, coming back to try to change things.

SPEAKER_00 1:22

There's so many possibilities, and it's kind of mind-bending and mind-blowing to a certain degree as you're trying to find the truth.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

It appears that they are attempting to upgrade humans.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Once again, glad you're feeling much better and um and really glad to have you here this evening.

SPEAKER_02 1:49

It's a pleasure to be with you.

SPEAKER_00 1:51

Wonderful. Well, as mentioned before, I do like to start off with a little bit of an introduction just to give people a little bit of a better understanding of who you are. I think your work certainly speaks for itself. You have a number of different books out there. You've done a lot of research over the years, lots for us to dive into. And I'm very excited about this one specifically because I'm very familiar with the Betty and Barney Hill story, but I have never met anyone that's this closely associated. So this is incredibly exciting to say the least. But Kathleen Martin is an internationally recognized UFO abduction researcher, author, and lecturer with more than three decades of experience in investigation, research, and public education. She earned her BA from the University of New Hampshire and completed graduate studies and education at the University of Cincinnati and UNH, a former educator and program supervisor. She later served for 10 years as director of MUFON's Field Investigator Training Program and another 10 years as director of MUFON's experiencer research team. She's a recipient of the International UFO Congress Lifetime Achievement Award and currently serves as a MUFON Lifetime Member, benefactor, and research consultant. Once again, Kathleen, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_02 2:58

Thank you. Great to be with you this evening.

SPEAKER_00 3:01

Absolutely. Well, Kathleen, I I do want to start here. You have you have a number of books that you've either written or co-authored. And I I do just want to give the crowd a general overview of those books. This is a little bit of a plug as well, uh, early on with the different different books that people can go and read and research on you. Obviously, there's a lot of information online as well, and I'm going to share your website, so they're going to be able to dive into all this. But can we just start with the books and kind of the timeline of the books that you have written and/or co-authored over the years and what they are about?

SPEAKER_02 3:35

Well, my first published book on UFOs was about Betty and Barney Hill, my aunt and uncle. And I had worked on that beginning in 1991 when I joined the Mutual UFO network and became a field investigator and decided that I was going to spend a tremendous amount of time uh researching the case, investigating the case, uh, and on and on. I spent a great deal of time with Betty Hill, my aunt, uh, prior to that and during this investigation, up until the end of her life. So uh tremendous amount of work in that. I had it uh mostly written when I uh decided I did not want to uh do the part on the star map myself, the star map research. And so uh speaking of that, Betty um observed a star map on the craft after she asked where they were from. So this is what I'm talking about. Stanton Friedman was an expert on that. He was a nuclear physicist, had a master's degree in physics, and uh agreed to work with me. And so we wrote captured the Betty and Varney Hill UFO Experience, which was published in 2007. Um, our next book was uh called uh oh what was it?

SPEAKER_00 5:13

You have for forbidden knowledge contact uh contact um extraterrestrial um as well.

SPEAKER_02 5:20

Um Science Was Wrong.

SPEAKER_00 5:23

Yep, science was wrong.

SPEAKER_02 5:24

Our next book, published, I believe, in 2009, was Science Was Wrong. And this was about the the history of mainstream science, and we did a little bit on UFOs at the end of the book. It was actually uh in the science category in bookstores, and we uh talked about the history of science and how some very prominent scientists had denied the reality of whatever it was, and how they were debunked, they were ostracized by their peers, and in the end, uh these people were right, and it was the their colleagues who were wrong. So uh we had a lot of fun writing that book. The next book I had published was with Denise Stoner, who comes from Florida. She used to be uh explor uh Florida's um move-on director. And also when I met her, she was the director of investigations and a state section director, and uh that was uh sort of soon after I moved to Florida, about 16 or more years ago.

SPEAKER_01 6:44

Right.

SPEAKER_02 6:45

And uh she confided in me that she was an experiencer, that she had had contact from the time she was a little girl. And so I asked her if I could investigate her case and she agreed. So I did a very extensive investigation. I was a hypnotherapist at the time as well, so I did hypnosis separately on Denise and her husband, and uh did a very thorough investigation of her case. So the book Um The Alien Abduction Files begins uh first with several chapters about my investigation of Denise's case and Denise's uh writing as well on what it was like to be an experiencer going through this. Uh so very important several chapters about a significant case. Then I wrote about another significant case that I worked on when I was in New Hampshire for several chapters. I did the hypnosis on that as well. And then the the third section of the book uh is about several different cases of ET contact, UFO abductions, that sort of thing. Um, the th so that was the third book. The fourth book was Fact Fiction and Flying Saucers. Uh that was one of my favorites. And uh actually I have it right here. I've been uh doing a presentation, uh developing a presentation based on that book. Stanton and I collaborated with that. Uh initially I had begun a relationship with Stanton as uh me being the mentee, and he was my mentor on the history of government involvement on uh the investigation of UFOs, their uh major studies. Uh I knew that they were debunkers, and so I wanted to know all about that too, who they were and what they were saying, and what was accurate and what was not, and why. And so Stanton gave me many assignments. He didn't just hand me his what he had learned. Uh I went to the American Philosophical Society. I did a lot of research, archival research for this book. Stanton had already done it. Um, and so uh that was a book that we wrote together, and uh it's a very good book, particularly today, since uh the Congressional Oversight Committee on UAPs is uh doing a lot of talking about that. And uh President Trump has released three um tranches of UFO reports and videos. And uh so the history is in this book, and so there's a lot more information there.

SPEAKER_00 10:00

Kathleen, by the way, I I appreciate all of this. I know this is kind of a big question to start the show off with, but I wanted to make sure people understood how much you have done over the years and how involved you've been throughout these books. Um I will also be ordered, all of these are on their way. They're all they're all on the way to the house right now because I have to review every single one of them. Um, but I also just want people to really fully understand how much you've you've poured into this over the years. Um, instead of going and watching disclosure day and thinking, oh, this is just how you know this is, right? It's like, no, there's all there's so much academic research behind this.

SPEAKER_01 10:35

There is.

SPEAKER_00 10:36

People need to know that. They need to know how credible individuals like yourself are and how much you've actually poured your life and soul and heart into what's what is obviously the UFO and UAP space. So once again, appreciate you for answering the entire question in its entirety.

SPEAKER_02 10:50

A lot of time, a lot of money, a lot of travel to archival collections, just uh a tremendous amount of work. But it was all worth it because I uh had the answers about some of these things regarding government documents, etc., years before they've been released and have written about that. So uh this book is uh really about the history and in-depth history. So then uh the next book I wrote was uh a book called Extraterrestrial Contact: What to Do When You've Been Abducted. Now, I was the Mutual UFO Networks uh director of field investigator training first for 10 years, and then for 10 years, I was the founder and director of the experiencer research team, which was renamed the experiencer resource team after I left. So uh we were doing a great deal of research. Uh, we were working with experiencers on a daily basis, and this book is a self-help guide, really, for experiencers of extraterrestrial abduction, ET contact, and even people who are having paranormal experiences in their home and wonder how that's related to ET contact. So a great deal of information about uh ET contact, the abduction experience, overcoming fear, overcoming trauma, the changes that experiencers go through. I have worked on uh five in-depth studies, uh, four of them with PhD scientists now. And uh so some of that is in this book as well. The MUFON study is in this book and uh addresses other studies um and other really great cases, some of my most interesting cases of ET contact are in that book, both good and bad, and in between. So uh pretty comprehensive book as well. And then uh the last book that I have written uh to date is uh Forbidden Knowledge, a personal journey from alien abduction to spiritual transformation. And I uh talk about my work, um, my life, my relationship with Betty Hill, the studies that I have worked on, most of them. After I wrote the book, I've done more studies. And uh I'm going to be I'm working on another book actually, but it won't be ready for a couple of years.

SPEAKER_01 14:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 14:03

It takes a long time for me to write books because of the degree of research that I do.

SPEAKER_00 14:10

So uh that I think people also appreciate that nowadays, too, especially with AI. It's like, well, this is not just an AI-generated book. This is an this is something that she's actually doing herself. She's actually writing this book, she's actually doing the research.

SPEAKER_02 14:25

I'm not permitted to use AI. If I did, it wouldn't be published. So uh everything's done by me. In this book, I uh also talk about experiments that I've participated in, and I talked about uh some uh information that came from to me from the granddaughter of Admiral Herbert Knowles, who back in 1954 was talking with Wilbert Smith, a radio engineer from the Canadian government, and the government's director of Project Magnet and Project Second Story, and their attempts to contact ETs as well. So uh there uh are a lot of interesting stories in that book. It's sort of a personal book, not as much in-depth, you know, uh investigation going to archival collections, but Admiral Knoll's granddaughter gave me his correspondence files with Wilbert Smith, and no one knew about that, and they ended up communicating through telepathic contact via uh a woman in Maine, and then they were both scientists, and so they were doing a scientific investigation to determine whether this information was accurate or not. Um, Herbert Knowles knew about this woman because uh she knocked on his door one day and gave him a thick packet of information, and in that uh packet was information way beyond her level of education and scientific knowledge, allegedly from E.T.s. And he sent that to Dwight Eisenhower, and Dwight Eisenhower uh ended up involved in this. I have evidence that it did go to him, that it then went to the Air Force, the FBI, the CIA, and the Navy. So uh you'll even see uh uh the an FBI memo of uh to indicate how the government handled this.

SPEAKER_00 16:47

Fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 16:48

So uh a lot of interesting information as well.

SPEAKER_00 16:51

Absolutely, absolutely. So I um uh I've I've got a lot of questions. This is fantastic. I'm gonna do a lot of listening tonight, if you don't mind. I've got obviously plenty of questions, and this is me doing a podcast with you, and sometimes I speak a lot just to kind of you know share my thoughts on things. But if I'm gonna be completely honest, I know we don't have you know the entire night to do this. And so I want to get to certain questions that I've had that I tend to ask across the board because I'm still learning a lot. Obviously, we're all still learning things as time goes on, and we're gonna continue learning.

SPEAKER_02 17:21

And we never know all the answers.

SPEAKER_00 17:23

We never know all the answers, right? And I think more than anything, and I appreciate you saying that right from the beginning, because we just don't have all the information, and we I think it it takes a uh a huge level of humility to just say that from the very beginning, especially with all of the work that you've you've done uh in this space. Um but but with uh a lot of this that's coming out as of late, people are struggling with discernment as to you know what is true, what's false, how to gather information, how to do the research. Um just a basics question before we start and dive into the specifics here, but how would you suggest that somebody that's new to this information, because it's obviously been going on for a while, we've got a lot of information out there, but someone that's new to the UFO abduction research space and is trying to their best to better understand what's going on, what would you suggest to them as a good starting point so they don't go down the wrong rabbit hole necessarily?

SPEAKER_02 18:15

I would suggest uh that you purchase books by uh highly uh qualified individuals. You can go back to Dr. Alan J. Allen Heinek, uh, who uh was the Project Blue Books astronomical consultant and debunked UFOs and over the years realized they were real and uh started the the Center for UFO Studies uh with others, was Jacques Vallée. Uh and so his his early work is very, very good. He he has left us a long time ago, but his work is very good if you want a foundation of understanding. Also, uh there are some many archival books, but look for a bibliography, look for footnotes, and uh that's very important because you want to know that the person is presenting valid evidence, valid information. If a book doesn't have footnotes and a bibliography, I'd say it might be an interesting read, but you should probably pass it by if you want real information, valid information. Um, I started with them. Also, Anne Druffel wrote a book about Dr. James McDonald. Years ago, he was recognized as the leading scientific researcher of all time regarding UFOs. And I spoke about him quite a bit in fact fiction and flying saucers as well, and um the the work that he did as a meteorological physicist, an atmospheric physicist who spent ten years investigating UFOs scientifically before he published uh and he published a tremendous uh booklet on his work, which I'm not sure if it's available any longer, but you can look for his archives as well. His archives are at the University of Arizona. So uh he was hated by the debunkers, uh disliked by Dr. Edward Condon, who did the research, uh, well, was the director of the Condon Committee. He was really a debunker, too. He uh he had a job to do for the Air Force. Uh he had a security clearance, and uh they he they did the job. It's all in fact fiction and flying saucers.

SPEAKER_00 21:17

Well, being hated by the debunkers probably means you're hovering right over the truth to a certain point.

SPEAKER_02 21:21

Yes, he was.

SPEAKER_00 21:24

You're somewhere in the ballpark, the general vicinity if you're being hated by the debunkers. So it's phenomenal.

SPEAKER_02 21:29

Uh I'd recommend my books. I'd recommend books by Stanton T. Friedman. Uh if you want to know about Roswell, he has one. Also, Don Schmidt has a very good book, Don Schmidt and Tom Carey on the Roswell incident. Very good researchers. If you want to know about the history of E.T. Contact, uh read John Mack's books, read Bud Hopkins' books, David Jacobs. There's a lot of speculation in David's books, but it's based on his hypnosis sessions. Bud Hopkins took a fairly scientific view of his research and worked with Dr. Don C. Don Dery, a professor at McGill University, on some of his work. I've written about that too. I've also worked with Dr. Don Darry. He graduated from high school at age 15 and entered the University of Chicago. And just to give you an indication of how bright he is. And he's written books on UFOs too. So Dr. Don C. Don Dary, excellent writer. Leslie Kane, K-E-A-N, wrote a great book on UFOs as well. You can find that. If you really get into the subject and you start speculating about what it is, Jacques Vallée wrote a good series of books as well. Let me think. I don't want to have anyone angry at me for not mentioning their books.

SPEAKER_00 23:20

I'm sure there's plenty. I think, and I think more than anything, it's just there's so much information out there nowadays. And with YouTube and with once again, AI now, you ask questions and it's going to feed you know lots of information. But I think going back to the baseline and going back to the beginnings of this is really what's most important to get a really good understanding of what's going on. And I think that's where a lot of our generation is struggling right now is you're like, there's so many possibilities. And it's kind of mind-bending and mind-blowing to a certain degree as you're trying to parse through the information and find the truth. Um once again, there's probably a little bit of truth in everything and a little bit of fiction in everything as well. But we're we're ultimately working through that together. Um more than anything, this episode is going to be helpful a lot of people as they are going down this road to realize and open their minds to different possibilities and realize there's lots of different possibilities, but also that there is a lot of research that's been done into these things to prove that there are other things out there that that we are we kind of understand, but don't fully understand yet. And so I would like to, I'd kind of like to segue into that. Um I would like to start with the Betty and Barney Hill story and just talk through that, but because that's the first experience that has been ever scientifically researched. Is that that's correct?

SPEAKER_02 24:37

That's correct. It was the first case of alien abduction uh that was investigated by scientists, and most of the scientists who investigated it believed that it was real. Now uh Walter Webb was the first investigator. He didn't write uh a book on it, but you will see some of uh his report on my website as well. Um, and you'll read about Walter Webb and his investigation in Capsured as well. There were many other scientists who investigated the case over the years. Uh Stanton Friedman investigated uh the star map that Betty Hill recalled under hypnosis. Uh Dr. Simon, the psychiatrist who hypnotized Betty and Barney separately a couple of years after they had their experience. And what I want to m be clear about is this wasn't all recovered through hypnosis. Betty and Barney had a clear conscious recall, and it's in the early documents. And you'll find some of those documents on my website, you'll find them in my book as well. So um you need to really look at those uh because those early documents uh make very clear what Betty and Barney saw, what knowledge they had, and then how they drove uh up to that close encounter site time after time over the next two years after their sighting. They made a report to the Air Force immediately after they arrived home and the following day as well. So uh it's all in captured. Plus, you get to know who Betty and Barney were.

SPEAKER_01 26:40

Right.

SPEAKER_02 26:41

And uh that's uh uh what they did for careers, their families, uh, their uh awards and honors, and uh on and on and on into the in-depth the UFO story, my comparative analysis of Betty's and Barney's statements under hypnosis, because Betty gave me the transcripts and I transcribed everything. I established Betty's and Barney's archival collection at the University of New Hampshire, and I am the trustee of their estate. So I have all of the archival records.

SPEAKER_00 27:26

Fantastic. And with um Betty and Barney Hill, this is this the whole hypnosis thing is discussed across the board. And I know a lot of people retrieve information from hypnosis therapy. Um, can you just for those that are not familiar with hypnosis therapy, can you explain why that is important for people to go into hypnosis therapy and why we believe the information that is retrieved from hypnosis therapy as well?

SPEAKER_02 27:50

Well, I'm going to qualify that because you have to uh examine the qualifications of the hypnotist. Is this someone who knows a lot about psychology? Is this someone who is licensed or certified? Is this someone who is experienced in working with experiencers, yet can work uh with objectivity and without bias? So those are very important things because you never want to lead uh anyone in hypnosis. Betty and Barney were referred to Dr. Benjamin Simon because Barney had conscious recall of observing non-humans, and they frightened him greatly when he was standing in a field looking through binoculars up at a craft hovering only a hundred feet above him. It was always part of his conscious recall, and he was greatly distressed by this. Uh, he uh had what now we now uh might call a light case of post-traumatic stress disorder. Um he was still able to work, um, but he had a high level of anxiety around what had happened, what he had observed. And he ended up developing bleeding ulcers because of it and high blood pressure, and it didn't recede with traditional medical treatment. So he was referred to Dr. Benjamin Simon, who was a renowned neuropsychiatrist in Boston. He was uh deemed number one in the country for the work he did. He had uh been a colonel in the Army, I think it was a lieutenant colonel, and uh during World War II, and had set up the psychiatric unit at the Mason General Hospital and very successfully treated uh veterans who were returning from the war with deep trauma. And uh it showed them perhaps uh being blind without a physiological cause, uh being unable to walk without an physiological cause. He used deep trans hypnosis to get to the root of the problem. And at the end of the movie, Let There Be Light, a John Houston movie that was made about uh his work during World War II, you saw those uh veterans returning to their homes, getting on a bus, going back to their families, that kind of thing. That's the kind of hypnotist and physician Dr. Simon was. He wasn't your neighborhood uh hypnotist who treats people for uh weight loss and smoking cessation and and that sort of thing. Highly credentialed. And so uh I did notice that he was attempting in his hypnosis to lead Betty and Barney away from the idea that they had been abducted, despite the fact that both of them, separately under hypnosis, relived the same, essentially the same type of experience from their own perspectives. Dr. Simon reinstated amnesia at the end of each session, so they couldn't compare notes or share information. That was extraordinarily important as well. And so his hypnosis with Betty and Barney uh gives you an example of a highly qualified uh hypnosis practitioner.

unknown 31:43

Right.

SPEAKER_00 31:44

I've uh that's been on my mind a lot as of late because I keep hearing about hypnosis therapy and regression therapy and how it's helpful in returning to these thoughts and actual experiences. But uh but I think that answers it super well. Um because I for some of these stories they seem a bit absurd. I'm like, I'm not entirely sure that person was qualified to do that hypnosis therapy.

SPEAKER_02 32:06

Yeah, I just had one more point to make, and that is that Dr. Simon did not believe that this was even possible, and uh and had never worked with anyone who'd had a similar experience. There are people today who are actually more qualified than he was because they know a great deal about what happens and how to uncover hidden memories, how to break through that amnesia and to get to what actually occurred.

SPEAKER_00 32:42

Wonderful. Well, I have um I have a number of fun questions to ask, and we can answer them probably pretty quickly or in a very in-depth manner. But the the two kind of additional questions I want to set up for us in preparation for those questions, um, the first one is about MUFON and about the UFO organizations that have been created over the past 50, 60, 70 years. Um I have read stories of other governments' involvements, um, their agencies and organization uh organizations um getting involved and infiltrating organizations like MUFON and others to try to lead people astray and/or add deception to the mix. Um, this obviously occurs at every level. This is nothing new, right? Right. But I I do want to just address that real quick because I've not heard any, I've not really watched anything with anyone addressing that in particular. Um, so I'd like to give us a moment to address that before we then dive into government deception and why the government might be hiding all these secrets in general. But if you wouldn't mind, just because of your experience with MUFON, I would like for us to address it with MUFON in particular and why MUFON is still a very credible organization in and of itself, even with potential um infiltration by other organizations and entities, and then lead into the government from there.

SPEAKER_02 33:59

Well, the Mutual UFO network is a well-established organization that uh was founded after um the uh NICAP, the National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena, of which Walter Webb, investigator Walter Webb, who was an astronomer and investigator, um, was part. And then he uh went over to the Center for UFO Studies and to MUFON. So MUFON uh has attracted scientists, it also uh trains field investigators, it has extensive training so that people don't go into an investigation without knowing what to do. They have the equipment. If uh people have a landing case, for example, they know how to go to that property, how to stake it out, how to collect scientific samples for investigation, um, that kind of thing. So uh that's very good. MUFON uh writes uh reports on those investigations. You also get lights in the sky. People always complain about too many lights in the sky, it's too boring, and everyone waits around for those good cases like the landing cases, the close encounters, the abductions, the ET contact cases, but they're few and far between. What uh has been recommended, and what MUFON does occasionally, and this was recommended by the government way back in 1953, is that um organizations should also um write about cases that they have solved, that they were pro to show that they uh were prosaic cases. Uh and you know, many of our cases can be solved uh through our research and investigation of them. So um that makes MUFON a good, reliable organization. Um they are very well structured and have been uh a volunteer organization for a very long time. If you want to know more about them, you can go to their website at MUFONMU-F-O-N.com.

SPEAKER_00 36:32

Wonderful. Wonderful. And as it relates to the government, now the disclosure day movie that was just released. Um really and have you seen the disclosure day movie already?

SPEAKER_01 36:42

I did see it.

SPEAKER_00 36:43

Okay. I was a I was a big fan personally because of what it portrayed the um the government's relationship and the private sector's relationship with UFOs to be and the UAPs to be. I really like the push and pull between the private sector and the you know the reasoning for holding certain information and not wanting to release information. And it kind of also made you think, too, this is why they maybe have not shared this information because it could collapse society as we know it. And I think for me, it definitely made me think even more in-depth about the topic instead of just being like, oh, we want disclosure because it's fun. It's let's think about this from a societal perspective and a societal impact perspective as well. Um, I would first and for all, what what were your thoughts on the movie?

SPEAKER_02 37:27

Uh I enjoyed the movie. It was really a chase movie, uh, so pretty exciting. Uh the government uh organizations were a little over the top, um, but it made it more exciting, I suppose. The you know uh uh attempted murder of uh the witnesses who were coming come forward, that kind of thing. Um there's been some talk about that in Washington with uh the Congressional Oversight Committee on UAPs of individuals who were giving uh sworn testimony, and you can see that online. So uh, you know, overall it was a good movie, but from the experiencers that I've talked to, it was traumatic for some of them. Wonderful for the general public, but traumatic for some of them.

SPEAKER_00 38:26

And can we dive into that? What what about it was so traumatic for those experiencers?

SPEAKER_02 38:31

I think that they were reliving um uh what had occurred to them. And uh if they've gone public, they probably have been harassed and threatened. Um and so if they have been, you know, you have a dead rabbit uh with its uh head severed, right, dropped off in front of your front porch, then and you're an experiencer. You those memories come back to you. Right.

SPEAKER_00 39:07

I um in in one of the podcasts that I did is podcast 36, I believe, with an individual that goes by the name of John. I just recently had him back on with Matt Kellison as well to dive into his experiences. But as a child, he experienced a wolf coming to his window and then pulling him through the window and into a craft. He did not get back a lot of these memories until later on with hypnosis um therapy, but he remembers the wolf. But through hypnosis therapy, he's he saw it as a gray, um, a gray alien pulling him through the window and then into a spacecraft with a uh another child, a girl, um, that was a few years older than him at the time, but they both were placed uh into the craft and then dropped back off later on. Um, he explained that in that that episode 36. And so as I was watching the movie, I was like, this is incredible how similar these stories are, and what Steven Spielberg has taken from it, what sounds like other experiencers, and then now portrayed it in the movie in this way. So it really hit me. It honestly made my, I just I froze and um I started sweating during the movie because of how similar it was. And so I guess my question to you is um, how many of those kinds of experiences have you researched and or um heard about from experiences over the years?

SPEAKER_02 40:27

Um, well, I've talked to and my team and I should, I should say, have spoken with several thousand. I have worked on studies with about 6,000 experiencers. And I personally, oh gosh, for the past 35 years or more, have more than that actually, have been talking with experiencers. So uh into the hundreds or thousands, I don't know. I didn't keep track. Some people like to keep track so they can, you know, bragging rights. I never kept track because I keep people's information confidential.

SPEAKER_00 41:04

Right. I love it. Um, so with that being said, were those experiences very similar to what I just discussed, or were there a lot that were very different and just kind of a little bit of everything over the years? Or is there a pretty common theme with the experiencers?

SPEAKER_02 41:22

There is a pretty common theme regarding the abduction scenario, how it happens generally there early on, you were outside. You might have been driving a car, you might have been uh hiking or camping or fishing, all sorts of things, driving through a remote area when you were ended up uh having a close encounter with a UFO, and then it uh took you onto the craft. You had missing time, you might have some memories about what happened, but it will be incomplete. Um, when they started taking people from their homes and they taking people intergenerationally, uh they the scenario was generally that they would come to your home at night and they would uh people would see the wall opening up, the ceiling opening up, a hole through the window. It was almost like some kind of portal or doorway uh where the ETs would come in, um, either step in or float in very quickly, um, take control of the experiencer. Initially, the experiencer is terrified, fight a flight response, but then they calm down, they feel a tingling sensation through their body, and then they're very quickly taken back through that portal into a non-human environment, either to a waiting room or to a table where they're examined. There are samples taken from their body, various tests are being conducted. Uh, after that, they generally have education. They might be given information uh and seen on screens and telepathically about the threat to the earth from nuclear bombs, from anything nuclear, and also uh the need to be good stewards to our environment. And more recently, messages to experiencers that we are at risk for a possible extinction because uh not by them but by ourselves. Because uh we have not grown spiritually. That uh although we have advanced technologically to a very high level, our spiritual development has been stagnant. And when this happens, it can lead to things like nuclear war, to things like the uh man-made collapse or human-made collapse to the environment that would uh uh essentially end civilization for most. I mean, it won't kill everybody or everything, but uh there will be a mass extinction if that continues. And so the uh experiences have pretty much been traumatized by that information over many years, didn't know how to interpret those images, some of them. And uh we know a lot more about that now.

SPEAKER_00 44:58

You mentioned intergenerational too. Have you, from all of your research and studies, found a correlation between the kind of individual and or the kind of family lineage, um, the kind of person that might be taken and or abducted at the end of the day, or experience these things across the board?

SPEAKER_02 45:17

It seems that the experiencers who are taken more than once uh have psychic abilities that they can communicate with these non-humans, that they they end up being people who, according to our studies, are spiritually oriented, um kind. Um this experience changes them in many ways. They view themselves as being uh citizens of this planet rather than nationalistic, for example. And so uh when you have that and the the ETs are working with you, they're doing genetic studies, and they want to continue to work with a particular genetic line because it appears that they are attempting to upgrade humans and they like the proximity of the genetic line so they can compare their uh tests from generation to generation.

SPEAKER_00 46:29

There are a couple of different ways to think about that. And I I I my my thought, there's a big question about spirituality here, and I'm gonna ask you about kind of about your spiritual journey through all this. And I'm sure it's obviously as you explain in your your book too, you talked about it, but um, there's this transformation that occurs as we go through life and we learn new things about ourselves and the world, um, and information that we just don't fully understand how to comprehend quite yet. Um but do you see that as a a good thing? What simple, simple way to ask it. Do you see that as a good thing or a bad thing, or is it somewhere kind of just in between for you at this at this point?

SPEAKER_02 47:07

The spiritual journey?

SPEAKER_00 47:08

No, well, the the aspect of these ETs coming and experimenting on us to upgrade us uh in our our biology. Um do we see that as a good thing, a bad thing, or just something that's being experienced?

SPEAKER_02 47:23

You know, I I I think about how we take uh our pets to the veterinary and and the pets don't like it at all, but um, you know, they might be incredibly fearful, uh they might not understand what's happening, but in the long run, it's saving the pets, extending their lives. Same thing with children. You take your children to the physician, the pediatrician for uh their uh uh inoculations, right, their shots, and um, it's for their benefit, but they fear the physician. I think of it in that way. Um I think that most of these non-human deaths have uh a benevolent purpose uh regarding what they're doing to us, even though we don't understand that. And many, many of us uh have experienced trauma. A lot of people refuse to let go of that. They claim that there really is an evil agenda that and and hang on to that fear and uh hatred, actually, toward the ETs. So uh that's not the best way to move through life.

unknown 48:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:43

Uh that's the way I see it. But yeah, people are entitled to do what they want with their lives. And unfortunately, the ETs don't ask for permission. They try to tell people that they asked for permission before they were born, but people don't remember that.

unknown 49:00

Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_00 49:01

Lots of soul searching to do throughout our lives.

SPEAKER_02 49:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 49:04

Lots of soul searching to do. Uh, with that, uh for your spiritual journey in particular. Um, can you just kind of give us a little bit of an overview of how that has transitioned over the years and how you've moved through your life and now upgraded spiritually to where you are today?

SPEAKER_02 49:19

Yes, absolutely. I started out being highly scientifically oriented. I uh would not even consider the paranormal as being real, uh, or most UFO reports. I I knew that my aunt and uncle had had a real experience. Um I saw the evidence of that, physical evidence, scientific reports. But uh I over time I transitioned. I was able to move beyond that left brain mind of mine. And uh this helped me with my experiments because I engaged in a number of experiments just looking for answers as scientifically as possible, but still I had to get over to my right brain in order to do some of that work. And uh I'm back in pretty much in the left brain again, but uh I grew spiritually, I enjoyed the right brain activities, um got to meet a lot of those people, and they were very fine uh individuals, but uh their boundaries in terms of the scientific were not were as rigid as scientists have. And my background was in social science, but I also studied chemistry and physics, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 50:51

Wonderful. So the this this last episode I did, I we delved into different creatures uh also, but grays, reptilians, frog-like creatures, etc. Have those all come up in your research over the years too, or is it more consistent than than that?

SPEAKER_02 51:11

All of them have come up in my research and investigations.

SPEAKER_00 51:16

Okay. That's one to unpack. And I I'd like to know, because we'll talk about the Nordics as well. We can dive into the Nordics too. Yes. Um but my re my my recent, because I feel like my opinions on a lot of this stuff changes has changed dramatically, but my reason my recent kind of direction is that there is more of a supreme-ish being of sorts. Um, I still very much so believe in God. I believe in the the I believe in God very much so, but I believe that from God, there's lots obviously lots of things that have been created. Um, but the Nordics and the Grey aliens, there's a connection there of sorts. And according to my research, once again, please correct me like on the spot if I'm wrong here, but the grays are acting on behalf of the Nordics and basically following through with jobs for the Nordics. Is that is that accurate based off of your research?

SPEAKER_02 52:08

Yes, that is accurate. And also uh the insectoid types, the mantis types, uh working with the grays and the Nordics.

SPEAKER_00 52:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 52:18

The the reptilians are an independent group.

SPEAKER_00 52:21

Okay. Have the have a lot of these groups been here for a long time, or are they more so there they are coming from different areas of the universe?

SPEAKER_02 52:32

Uh you know, that's a good question, and I just don't know the answer. Um the uh many of them say that they have been here since the beginning of life on our planet. Uh, so that's a very long time, but uh for many, many years, uh the everyone saw the human types, the Nordic types in craft. They weren't seeing any other type. Then in the uh I have reports from the late 1940s where the gray showed up and uh were taking people to craft, and the experience was just not as nice as it had been with when the Nordics were there alone. I mean, because they didn't look absolutely don't look like us. Right. And uh just uh they're it's kind of a weird experience, as I understand it.

SPEAKER_00 53:28

They then transition into or realize if we present ourselves as animals, they'll be they'll be better with this or they'll be more calm, it seems like, from the comp the the comp a couple of conversations I've had around this topic once again. I know you've had thousands over the years. I'm just this is my the little bit that I know, but it seems like oh, a calming mechanism is to appear as an animal. It seems like they'll they'll they'll appreciate that more than a gray-looking alien type.

SPEAKER_02 53:55

Oh, yes. So you're talking about screen memories. Absolutely. I was thinking that you were talking about the possibility that they created the insectoids and the the type that looks like look like frogs. Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_00 54:08

That that is well. That is well.

SPEAKER_02 54:11

Yes. But um, yes, uh they are well known for uh giving people screen memories when they go to take children from their homes. They can appear as clowns or firefighters or uh police officers, whatever it is that's going to make the child feel safe. The clowns also show up in adult homes and to to take people. There are other things, giant rabbits. Um, let me think, herd of deer in the in the middle of the road, but it's actually ETs. Um, so a number of different things. Giant owls is another one.

SPEAKER_00 54:55

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 54:56

Very prevalent.

SPEAKER_00 54:58

There's also this recent conversation between, and you know, people are as they're doing their research, are trying to better understand, okay, what's the difference between extraterrestrial, ultraterrestrial, and interdimensional? Those are the three big terms that I that I've heard as of late. Um that seem to be kind of the more mainstream conversation. Uh, would you say that it's a little bit of all of the above, or it's possible that it's a little bit of all the above, or is it more so extra or interdimensional than than anything?

SPEAKER_02 55:26

Well, we know that uh they well, we don't know for certain, but you know, they they claim to come from other uh another solar system of various solar systems. And um, I don't know if we can believe them or not. We'd have to we have a lot more to learn on that. Um, so that's we would call them extraterrestrials if they come from here, from there. Uh many of these extraterrestrials are using interdimensional technology, we believe, to open portholes, to go into people's homes. Um and so in on screen, in photographs, you might see an orb coming down through a portal, and it materializes into a full body non-human when it hits the ground. So I have seen verified photographs of these things as a researcher. Another reason to join Mufon and become a researcher, but it takes a long time to get to that. I got to it after about 25 years. So, anyway, um to ultra-dimensional or ultra-terrestrial, uh, they've always been here. Maybe the reptilians. It could be that they've always been here, that there was a humanoid reptilian that lived somewhere out of sight and has come up and has taken people. Um, that's a possibility. Um another possibility is that they're time travelers, that they are us from the future coming back to try to change things so they don't end up the way they now are.

SPEAKER_00 57:21

I love that one. I love that theory personally. I think that's the most beautiful one. It's you're trying to make your past better so your future can be be better as well. I I personally resonate with that one a whole lot more. And it seems like a lot of these pop up around nuclear sites and obviously a lot more ever since we've been, you know, do been doing new have well, there's nuclear activities occurring in the world. So the 40s, 50s, 60s, a lot of this started to really pop out. But obviously, if you look as far back as the hieroglyphics from ancient Egypt, there's plenty of this that appears on on the pyramids. Um, so this this goes way back. Um, and uh that's probably another another podcast episode all altogether. But you mentioned that they say, you see, that they say or they um shared these things. When you say they shared, how are you um I interpreted that that as you maybe had or a conversation and or a telepathic experience? Can you just expand upon that just a little a bit more?

SPEAKER_02 58:18

Those were um through the reports we received in our studies on about 6,000 experiencers. Got it. Um some of the experiencers had had uh conversations or received telepathic messages stating that information.

SPEAKER_00 58:38

Understood. Understood. Well, Kathleen, this is this has been a wonderful episode. Uh I I know that I'm sure you've had very lengthy conversations with people um uh over the years, and it's hard to stop this conversation because there are so many questions, so many conversations I want to have. But more than anything, you've got lots of great information out online, wonderful books that delves deep into all of this. Um, it is very clear there's a lot more going on that we don't fully understand and the population needs to know more about. Um, to a certain degree, ignorance is bliss for the population. However, for those that are spiritually available and or willing to learn more, I feel like we should start to learn more as rapidly as possible and just to be open to these possibilities because it's the only way that we grow as human beings, it's the only way we grow as a population. Um, and um more than anything, I just really appreciate you sharing your your thoughts and um your experiences over the years with these individuals that have been so willing to share their experiences with you as well. But is there anything that you'd like to share just in closing tonight that you think might be beneficial for those that are that are listening in on this episode?

SPEAKER_02 59:44

If you are an experiencer, uh you can contact the Mutual UFO network. There are other uh also other people that you can find online. I'm no longer working directly with experiencers because I'm focusing on making a six-part documentary and writing a book, and it's taking up all of my time. But there are other people that I have trained over the years who are now highly experienced, and uh they would love to speak with you. So uh that's something. Um also uh read your books, read what the what uh Donald Trump has uh released to the public and assess that. Some of them are reports dating back to 1947 or earlier, uh, which were denied for years, but now we see that they're real. Um learn how to do uh an assessment of any video that you see. Can you identify it? Um what can you identify it as? And there are ways through uh investigation and research that you can do that. If you become a MUFON field investigator, you learn all of that. So uh, you know, become knowledgeable, have no fear. If they wanted to harm us, they would have a long time ago. And uh many people think that we're ready to know that the public has a right to know that this information should not be withheld from us as it has been for 60 or 70 or more years.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:29

Well, Kathleen, thank you again for your time. And uh best of luck with the the the book and everything you're working on right now. It obviously takes a lot of time, and um, we are I know we're all very excited to to learn more about everything you're releasing here soon. So thank you again for taking the time tonight.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:46

Okay, thank you so much. It was a pleasure to speak with you.